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Robert Fitzgerald — Age Discrimination Commissioner

Welcome to the next episode in our Let's Talk Ageing series, which is a series of talking to our thought leaders and people in the sector and people that just really have an experience of older people generally to discuss their issues, the sorts of things that are concerning them and the things we need to do in Australian society as we become an older society.
And today it's a great joy to be joined by Mary Ann, who's the CEO of the Federation of Ethnic Community Councils of Australia. So very much welcome to you and thanks for joining us.

Mary Ann Baquero Geronimo — FECCA CEO 

Thank you, Robert, and thank you for having me in this series.

Robert Fitzgerald — Age Discrimination Commissioner 

So, Mary Ann you've come from a very diverse background in terms of cultures and now you're working in the thick of this area. So how do you see ageing generally? How do you see yourself ageing and becoming older?

Mary Ann Baquero Geronimo — FECCA CEO 

Yeah, I see ageing as actually an opportunity that is something that many of us maybe a few generations ago did not have. You know, living longer has been a phenomenon that's only very recent.

So I see that as an opportunity to really think long term of the opportunities and the kind of life that we'd like to live. So I see myself ageing in a way that I will be with community, I will be connected with people that I love. I would like to continue to be able to, you know, still be able to connect, but also help in the development and the connection of people in the community.

Robert Fitzgerald — Age Discrimination Commissioner 

In your own culture, in your own background. Is that sense of community as strong as it used to be? Or do you fear that it might be dissipating?

Mary Ann Baquero Geronimo — FECCA CEO 

There's both. There are communities that have been in Australia for the longest time and that they have taken on some social norms that are what we call very Western, for example. But also, there are new and upcoming communities who are just trying to take root and would like to be very, how do you say this, connected. And that's why they do all the things that are necessary to make sure that they have connections with associations, for example, as well as, you know, connections with the broader community.

Robert Fitzgerald — Age Discrimination Commissioner 

And as older people are ageing in Australia, many of whom have actually come from overseas, different countries, different backgrounds, do you think it is easy to age in Australia if you come from a different ethnic background?

Mary Ann Baquero Geronimo — FECCA CEO 

There are challenges to that, especially if you know you would come to a point where language would be a barrier. We know that people who will have dementia will at some point go back to their mother tongue, as we call it. And so, if you have future generations of workers who may not have your language, then it will become a challenge. But I think being in a multicultural country and ageing in a multicultural country is going to be very exciting. There's a lot of opportunities to it because you get to be able to share, if there's community, if there's spirit of community out there, you're able to share the learnings that you have, as you know, in your culture with the rest of the population. And I think that's something that we should really embrace and, you know, truly live you know, a life that is multicultural.

Robert Fitzgerald — Age Discrimination Commissioner 

FECCA is a very important organisation. And I've dealt with it for a very long period of time and on many, many issues. Do you think that optimism that you personally share, Mary Ann, is something that's shared generally within the association and the organisations you deal with? Or are there issues that are starting to concern those communities that you represent?

Mary Ann Baquero Geronimo — FECCA CEO 

I think there's both. We truly believe in many leaders in the community, we truly believe that if we're not optimistic, then where would we be going? I think we need to have that level of optimism for changes to occur, for that multiculturalism to really be embraced. But obviously the other part of it is the challenge. We know that there's a lot of older people in the community who are not able to access services, for example, for many reasons. Many of them actually do not understand how the system works. And then would also have that sense of, you know, I'm fine, I've been here. For people who come from trauma background to them, many of them believe that they have been very blessed to be in Australia and to ask for anything more, it's almost like, you know, beyond their understanding.

And so, there's many different cultures who would approach ageing in many different ways. But I think overall there's that sense of, you know, embracing ageing, but also an understanding that there is a broader community out there who would love to support people who are ageing.

Robert Fitzgerald — Age Discrimination Commissioner 

You've got a special interest in aged care and of course, we have the new age care reform starting very shortly in that new framework, that new aged care system they talk about having regard to culture, to trauma, to healing, and obviously to a greater understanding of cultural diversity. 

Are you confident that the service systems, the providers are really up to the task of doing that?

Mary Ann Baquero Geronimo — FECCA CEO 

I think it varies across the spectrum, especially, you know, there are many providers out there who have just started to understand how it is to be operating in a very multicultural country. And I think there are already interventions out there that should help them keep pace with that reality on the ground because we can't say we don't want to work with people from multicultural backgrounds because if you look at the statistics, it's already a third of the population of all the persons who are coming from this background. And so, in the future there will be more of them. So, it will make business sense to have an understanding of the cultural differences, but also an understanding on how to deliver service as though it's your usual business service, you know, like usual business. So, but there are also organisations out there who are kind of left behind because obviously there's a lot of requirements in terms of the regulations and if you're a small operator it will really impact on your operations. And so there needs to be a lot of support for those small, multicultural and ethno-specific organisations to thrive, to be sustainable and be able to take care of the older persons in their community.

Robert Fitzgerald — Age Discrimination Commissioner 

And is there sufficient advocacy for older people as they enter the aged care system, whether it's residential or supports at home? Are they generally well supported to be able to work within and through those systems?

Mary Ann Baquero Geronimo — FECCA CEO 

I would say we need more. We need to do more in that aspect. FECCA, when I started FECCA in 2019, I developed the design for the EnCOMPASS program, which is an age care navigation system. And it really provided us with a lot of insight in the sense that we understand that people who are needing language support will most often fall through the cracks because, you know, of all the barriers and the challenges that they have to overcome.  And so, we made recommendations to the government that this is a very essential aspect of the aged care sector, that there is someone who is culturally competent to help people navigate the system. 

We all know, Robert, that, you know, if you look at the statistics, most older persons from multicultural backgrounds actually do not enter residential aged care facilities. There is a lot of preference for people to stay at home, and that's why our advocacy is really to strengthen the initiatives, interventions, and programs at that level, because there is a lot of opportunity for community members, community leaders, to also be a part of that broader system of support.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner 

If I can just take one last specific point about financial abuse of older people, you've been part of discussions and roundtables in relation to that issue. How do you think the multicultural communities are approaching and dealing with the issue of abuse of older people, given that so many communities would tell us that they respect their elders, they respect their older people, and yet we do know that abuse can occur. So how do you think we need to approach that issue or how are they approaching that issue, more importantly?

Mary Ann Baquero Geronimo — FECCA CEO 

I think there's a lot of commitment and also interest to be a part of the solution. But I think we are at the level at the moment where many people, many leaders do not know what they can do and what kind of support they can actually access to be able to do that. And I think the initiative that you have started, it's a very critical initiative because with a collaborative approach, we could bring forward, you know solutions that the community members have been actually telling us how it could work for them. Because at the end of the day, and we've learned this throughout the COVID-19 pandemic, that solutions are actually based on people's experiences. They know what to do. We just need to empower them and give them resources to be able to do that work in terms of helping the rest of the community understand regulations but also understand where they can access support if someone is going through that kind of abuse.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner 

So just finally, what would be your one big message to the Australian community around ageing in the multicultural communities have? What would you like to see Australia's attitude be towards, as I say, older people in those communities?

Mary Ann Baquero Geronimo — FECCA CEO 

Number one, I think we need to embrace longevity. And I have been talking about this to a lot of people because it's a reality. All of us are going to really age, you know, longer, live longer. And I also want to highlight that women will also live longer. 

And I always say this, women are the face of the older population. There will be more of women in the older age population. And that's why it's really important for women to understand that future of maybe potentially being alone. And that means we need to understand and prepare ourselves to be financially independent, for example, to be supported by our family members or if there's none, because many migrants actually come here on their own. And to have the connection with community and community organisations are actually, that's their objective, to make sure that everybody's supported. 

You and I have had these conversations before. When older persons are isolated, that's when they are open to a lot of abuse. That's when they're not safe. And that's why communities need to rally because all of us are going to grow old, whether we like it or not. But again, I'd go back to that very positive message of it's an opportunity. It's a blessing to actually age up to 90, 100, because you can look at the future where you can do many things. You can engage your community. You can engage, you know, other ways of, you know, learning, for example, so that you can be more connected not only to your own community but to the whole of Australia.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner 

Mary Ann, I love your optimism, and I hope you age very well. And for all of those that have been listening, I hope you found this informative, and we look forward to joining you in the next episode of Let's Talk Ageing. 

And as I always say, age well.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

Welcome to another episode in our series on Let's Talk Ageing. It's a series where we talk to thought leaders and people in the community sector and more generally about the issues confronting older people and of course their own experience of ageing and the future that they see for older people in Australia more generally. And today we're really delighted to have Cassara Hardie, Cassara's Acting CEO, she tells me, of the National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Ageing and Aged Care Council.Now that's a mouthful. So welcome. 

Welcome very much, Cassara.

Cassara Hardie - Acting Chief Executive Officer, National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Ageing and Aged Care Council (NATSIAACC) 

Thank you Robert.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

Tell us a little bit about your own background, Cassara, You're a very proud Aboriginal woman. Tell us about where you grew up and where's your Country.

Cassara Hardie - NATSIAACC Acting CEO

So, I'm a proud Dunghatti woman from the mid-North Coast of NSW.
But I was unfortunate not to live on Country. I was born and raised on Darug Country in western Sydney, NSW. I didn't get to grow up knowing my culture, I learnt that at a later age. So yeah, missed out on a few years, but very privileged to be involved in the culture and representing our elders and older people now.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

Now you're a young person. Certainly, relative to me, but how do you see ageing generally? I mean, it's a long way off in your own circumstances, but when you think about ageing, getting older, what sort of comes to mind for you?

Cassara Hardie - NATSIAACC Acting CEO

I don't see it as ageing. I see it as a holistic approach from birth to end of life. So, health and wellbeing and ageing is all in one for me. And when you do access aged care, you don't stop needing health and wellbeing support. So ageing is just an additional support needed.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner 

So, this continuum into ageing is a really important concept. How you enter old age really determines how you live out, you know, the last few years of your life. So that holistic approach is very important. In the First Nations communities, is that sort of a notion that you think resonates or there is there a clear division between, you know, age and non-aged in those communities?

Cassara Hardie - NATSIAACC Acting CEO

There is a divide, but I do see that there's significant gaps across the entire life cycle of our First Nations people. The national agreement to closing the gap is one of the important documents that we have put in place to ensure that this changes for our Elders, our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. But there's still some room for improvement.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

One of the most alarming figures which is often talked about is the fact that for non-Indigenous people, old age is about 65 years of age. For First Nations people it's 50 years.  I mean that tells us a great deal about what's gone wrong in terms of the care and the well-being and the health of Indigenous people. 

Are you optimistic that that will change over time? Do you think we're doing enough to narrow that gap, both in terms of mortality, but actually that sort of ageing gap that I've just referred to?

Cassara Hardie - NATSIAACC Acting CEO 

No, I don't think enough is being done. There's a lot of years between a 50-year-old and a 65-year-old and I think that there's a lot more work that we could all do to improve that.

However, as we all know, First Nations people have are more common to get chronic illnesses from a younger age, so that results in a lot of elders and older people requiring aged care services earlier than non-Indigenous people.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

So we're about to have a new aged care system and I know your council's been intimately involved in trying to shape that.

How do you see the new system affecting First Nations older people generally, is there a level of confidence that it can start to address certain issues or do you feel that it's missing the mark?

Cassara Hardie - NATSIAACC Acting CEO

It's missing the mark in a lot of areas. Our First Nations aged care service providers as well as our Elders and older people are identifying a lot of significant concerns within the New Age Care Act.

And as much as it's about being rights based and self-determination, it's missing the mark for First Nations people. It's not specific enough for us. We have cultural protocols that need to be considered when accessing aged care and being provided those services, one of those being co-contributions. 

A lot of our First Nations people come from low socio-economic areas, specifically our rural and remote areas as well, and requiring them to pay a co-contribution is unfair because they're not going to be able to receive those services that other non-Indigenous clients will be able to receive. 

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

So in the new Age Care Act, there is a bit of an emphasis in relation to service provider having regard to culture, to trauma, to healing, to First Nations people, to cultural groups generally. But from what you were saying, you're not confident that goes that's sufficient. So even though they're acknowledged both in the Statement of Rights but also throughout the document, you believe that in practice that's just not going to be sufficient to support your communities?

Cassara Hardie - NATSIAACC Acting CEO

That's correct. We were also engaged as a council to develop a cultural safety definition, which we were able to consult with providers as well as communities to get their voice on what they believe cultural safety is. And that's been developed and has been included in the explanatory memorandum of the Act. 

Now, that's not enough for our people that that that doesn't demonstrate that their voice has been heard. They're not in the legislation. Which just shows that we need to do more to ensure that their voice is heard and to understand those cultural protocols on what they need to be able to receive culturally safe, trauma-aware and healing-informed care. There's a lot to be done.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

And was there any explanation or reasoning as to why it wasn't incorporated in the Act? If it's there in the Memorandum of Explanation to the Parliament, why do you think it didn't end up in the legislation itself?

Cassara Hardie - NATSIAACC Acting CEO

The explanation was that there was a lot of work that needed to be done to translate the definition into a legislative format which doesn't demonstrate the voice of our Elders and older people. It changes the interpretation of the definition so that as much as NATSIAACC is advocating for that to be included in the legislation, we're being very careful on how that happens because the interpretation should not be changed.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

Your council's got a broader remit than aged care. It's about ageing, and it was really pleasing to see that.What do you think of the outstanding issues in relation to ageing, other than the aged care area that your organisation is being particularly attentive to?

Cassara Hardie - NATSIAACC Acting CEO

With ageing we're advocating for older people that are coming to the stage of needing to access aged care, which is very important because there's a long process that needs to be taken to be able to access aged care and there's a lot of support needed through the My Aged Care portal.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner 

In relation to the issue of Elders within the community, we often hear from First Nations communities, both Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander, that Elders are held in specific regard, high regard and respect. Yet at the same time, as you know, that there is this issue about abuse within all communities, Indigenous communities as well.How do you think we need to address that issue? What’s the sort of way in which you enter that conversation with First Nations communities? Because the tough topic when you're talking about family abuse in all communities, but for Indigenous people, it's sort of contrary to that notion that Elders have this special place.

Cassara Hardie - NATSIAACC Acting CEO

Yeah, they do. They're our knowledge holders. They have the history and the stories from generations before them. And they've passed that down, family member to family member. And we have to honour them and respect them. They are very important to us.  And family abuse within communities is quite difficult because within an Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander community, our families are not just mum, dad, brother, sister, it could be aunty, uncle and then so on. It could just be a family friend that takes on that responsibility. So, it’s a lot of a larger topic and a lot more needs to be done to be able to support families through abuse and where to go also for supports.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

And do you think the level of support out there is adequate? We often hear that there's, you know, a great attention about preventing responding, but the lack of services, supports can really be very debilitating, particularly if you're aware of somebody that you care about being abused and you know, what you do about it is the very big question. So are the support systems there, do you think?

Cassara Hardie - NATSIAACC Acting CEO 

No, they're not. And if you think specifically for our rural and remote locations, they don't have access to Internet and technology to be able to just Google it and say where do I go or I think I'm being abused. Like that's the simple way to put it. But for people in regional and urban areas that's more common or they've got connection to more supports like their Aboriginal medical service or a local community centre. So, they may be able to access that a lot easier and be provided that information. But yeah, a lot of our communities don't have that access. So, they don't know that there's supports available, but I still think there's more supports that need to be put in place.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

You're the Acting CEO. You keep telling me that you're very keen to tell me, that it's just acting at the moment. What would be your aspiration for this year coming? What would be the one thing you think the Council would like to achieve in this 2025-2026 period?

Cassara Hardie - NATSIAACC Acting CEO 

With the implementation of the New Age Care Act, I think it's very important that us as a Council and the people that advocate for our providers is to be there for our providers through the implementation of the Act. And to ensure that we are able to advocate for them for changes to not only the Act, but the rules and compliance with the Aged Care Quality Safety Commission to ensure that that transition is as smooth as possible when they still got to do the day-to-day operations. 

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

Well, good luck in that and good luck with the rest of your term as Acting CEO. Thanks very much, Cassara Hardie.

And I look forward to seeing you at the next episode in this series of Let's Talk Ageing, and as I always say, Age well.

Question:

What does getting older mean to you, and why?

Professor Tanya Buchanan: 

Getting older for me means the opportunity to continue to develop new skills and wisdom.  I am also incredibly privileged to be surrounded by passionate and clever people in my work and home life who encourage me to continue to learn. As I get older, I become increasingly aware of how much of a privilege it is to age and to age well. So for me I am very focused on looking after my health, including my brain health by staying physically and mentally active. 

Question:

What do you see are the key challenges people face as they get older? 

Professor Tanya Buchanan: 

Dementia is the second leading cause of death of all Australians and provisional data suggests it will soon be the leading cause. Our research shows that there has been a concerning lack of awareness and understanding about dementia in the community – with many Australians mistakenly believing dementia is a normal part of ageing.

The lack of knowledge and understanding of dementia in our communities has substantial negative impacts on people living with dementia, their families and carers. 

Low awareness contributes to discrimination, stigma and isolation. Poor understanding creates barriers to timely diagnosis and to accessing ongoing medical and social care.

Question:

Tell us about the work/research you’ve been doing to address these challenges? 

Professor Tanya Buchanan: 

It is never too early or too late to reduce dementia risk. While we cannot change getting older, genetics or family history, scientific research shows that looking after our brain health can make a big difference to reducing or delaying the risk of developing dementia. That’s why Dementia Australia is calling for critical investment from the Federal Government to support a national conversation on brain health, combined with more targeted and effective supports for people impacted by dementia. Taking this dual approach will ensure we are working towards reducing the impact of all forms of dementia.

Question:

How can others get involved or support this work? 

Professor Tanya Buchanan: 

Being brain healthy is relevant at any age, whether you are young, old or in between. However, it is particularly important once you reach middle age as this is when changes start to occur in the brain.  Some ways we can look after our brain health include:  

• Stay social, enjoy the company of others
• Try new things, like a new exercise routine    
• Learn a new hobby like painting or sewing. 

For more information, please visit or contact the National Dementia Helpline on 1800 100 500.

Question:

Who is an older or younger person who inspires you and why?

Chris Grice: �į 

There are few people aged in their nineties with the passion, drive, and ambition to ‘make tomorrow better’ than Everald Compton AO.  

While Everald’s achievements included starting National Seniors Australia in 1976 are admirable, I most admire his capacity to connect with people and cast aside challenges that would cause others to be disheartened and defeated. This has undoubtedly helped him to attain success for older Australians and others through National Seniors.

Whether he is defending, protecting, and promoting the interest of older Australians, fighting ageism or increasing awareness and understanding around dementia – Everald Compton personifies my personal and professional mantra that ‘Experience Matters’. He is a formidable and inspirational role model. 

Question:

What do you see are the key challenges people face as they get older? 

Chris Grice: �į

Not everyone has the privilege to get older. For those who do, getting older can bring with it more time for family, friends, and travel; wisdom, the ability to ‘not sweat the small stuff’ and confidence in one’s own skin. Getting older can also bring loss of social connections due to family and friends passing away; loneliness; physical health conditions or cognitive decline that can limit or prevent participation in hobbies and social activities; battles against ageism; perceived and real vulnerability; and keeping up with an increasingly digital economy and everchanging world. Both the ‘pros’ and the ‘cons’ can be impacted by health, social and financial circumstances. They highlight the importance of remaining socially connected – no matter how challenging this can be, and the need for universal kindness and respect.  

Question:

Tell us about the work/research you’ve been doing to address these challenges? 

Chris Grice: �į 

Every year National Seniors Australia (NSA) conducts a social survey capturing the views and experiences of thousands of older Australians aged 50-plus.Last year we included a module about people’s experiences of ageism in everyday life. Nearly everyone reported experiences of ageist attitudes and actions from others, especially in retail and service settings, or when seeking employment.  People who were socially or financially disadvantaged, who were older or in poorer health were even more likely to experience ageism. 

Our survey findings are publicly available on our website and are used in state and federal government submissions, advocacy campaigns, and public reports—helping to raise awareness and drive real change.

Question:

How can others get involved or support this work? 

Chris Grice: �į 

Regardless of people’s individual circumstances, working with independent and influential bodies such as the Human Rights Commission, while effectively advocating to government on their behalf, is key to bringing about policies that make a meaningful difference. As a peak consumer body that defends, protects, and promotes the interests of older Australians, NSA is best placed to influence these policies. NSA members inform our research and shape our advocacy agenda on issues including ageism, elder abuse, the age pension and aged care. The more members we have, the stronger our influence. We invite older Australians to help NSA continue our important work by participating in our research and surveys, and by becoming a part of the community. 

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner
Welcome to the next episode in our series on Let's Talk Ageing and it's a series where we're talking to thought leaders and people in the community sector and more generally about the issues confronting older people, how they themselves are approaching older age, particularly as Australia becomes an older society.

Delighted today to have Bev Lange with us and Bev's with the EAAA which is the Elder Abuse Action Australia and it's a terrific organisation which was formed a few years ago. So welcome Bev.

Bev Lange, Elder Abuse Action Australia EO
Thanks very much Robert, Great to be here.

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner
So one of the questions we've asked in this series is how you yourself see ageing for yourself or people you know? So what sort of approach do you have, as you look forward to your senior years?

Bev Lange, Elder Abuse Action Australia EO
When I, when I was considering how I think about ageing, I sort of had the most sort of ageist response of I don't want to age, I don't want to get older. How did I get to the number that I'm at?

But in fact, I'm very comfortable. I've recently turned 67. I'm still incredibly active in the workplace and can't really envision not working. And my partner and I have been talking about how we, we work our lives around how we age, and she is 10 years older than me.

So, there's some interesting balancing acts we've got to strike. And, and we've had conversations about, well, if one of us was left, what would the other do? Where would we live? Let's have that conversation because I'm probably more interested in engaging in that thought process. And, and so I've been doing a lot of reflecting on what I want to do. And I think it's, you know, as I get older and maybe drift away from work, I think it's going to be a time of exploration for me.

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

Do you think Australia is a hard place to grow old in? I mean, looking, you know, you've been around the sector, been around a lot of issues. Do you think it's harder to grow older now or do you think of the reverse, that actually it might be a little bit easier?

Bev Lange, Elder Abuse Action Australia EO

It's interesting. Because I've grown up to being, being into, into the able to embrace the digital age I suppose. I feel more comfortable about the information that I can access, and I don't think the same would have been said of my parents or earlier generations. Everything would have been paper and pen based. And I think that, you know, digital age makes things a lot more accessible. You can find things out quite quickly if you're literate, you know, digitally literate, which I am. 

I think it's a kinder place generally speaking in terms of diversity. There are pockets of resistance of course, as we know, but and I think there are lots of options, available as well. So, you know, on the balance, I think it's a good place. I don't think we're as forward thinking as perhaps some other nations, but I think it's still a great place to grow old and be around.

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner
Your organisation was established a few years ago specifically around the issue of elder abuse in all of its different forms. And I suppose, you know, in many senses, whilst you're right, it's a better place to be around when you're ageing. The other side of that point, of course, is this higher, there's some higher risks and there's some evidence that abuse is growing.

So where do you think we're heading in terms of being able to deal with abuse, both preventing it and obviously responding to it as we become an ageing society?

Bev Lange, Elder Abuse Action Australia EO

I think there are lots of barriers, Robert, in, in terms of responding to it. You know there's such a divergent range of views and agencies and responsibilities and laws that make addressing elder abuse more difficult.

I think there's, you know, if I can talk about response before I talk about prevention. You know, in terms of response, there's so many limitations. If I just think about courts. If you want, if you're an older person, you have your adult son living in your house, you've got to go to the Supreme Court to get them evicted. I mean, that is just a nonsense in my mind. And trying to resolve any elder abuse matter, you've got to go to the court which says you've got to spend money, you've got to take time, you've probably got to charge your adult child, and it seems to be a very blunt instrument for a sensitive and complex issue. And I hope in the course of the next 10 years, which is the next national plan to end abuse and mistreatment of older people in Australia, we can try to tackle some of those issues. 

I think it's a great plan to have and it does give us time to tackle difficult issues or at least get some ways into it. And courts and law reform are a particularly important one because they don't give the older person the right kind of chance or right to resolve their issues. 

And I think in terms of prevention, we're just not funded well enough. Parts of the sector that need to communicate messages and information and share the stories of people with lived experience of abuse. We're just not funded well enough to do the work as expansively as we think it's necessary. And I, I think, I think governments, sectors, community are essentially ageist and so we've got to push our way through that barrier as well. So I think there are some challenges, but I'm very optimistic that it's possible.

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner
So we've got ageism and we've got sexism, we've got racism and we have a lot of isms that confront our society. How do you think we best approach that issue of being ageist or ageism more generally? Do you think there's a greater awareness firstly, that that often we are unintentionally ageist in our approaches, but more importantly, some of our systems seem to me to have very strong ageist approaches in them, you know, built-in, especially health, aged care, you can go on. So do you think we're becoming more aware that this is actually an underpinning issue to so many of the problems for older people?

Bev Lange, Elder Abuse Action Australia EO

I don't think ageism is as well grasped by the general community as it needs to be, and certainly people in government. You and I have had a conversation before about systems design, and that systems are not designed for people who don't have good literacy levels of whatever sort. They're dense, they're complicated, they're unnecessarily designed in a way to exclude people. And all of our systems are moving to digital. We know that banks are closing branches and the idea of going in and completing a paper form and getting it run through the system is almost absent now. So I think at its core, we are ageist and we do not think of ourselves sufficiently, and we fit the bill as well a little bit at times, of sitting in another person's shoes and seeing what their response to a system or a design or an approach needs to be. I think that's where we've got to sort of take a step back. We're so busy trying to find solutions and pick off topics or address media issues and those kinds of things, we're not really taking enough time to consider the issues well enough.

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner
In elder abuse, much of that abuse takes place within the family by often adults, sons or daughters, sometimes intimate partners.  And so in many senses, people find that a very confronting area, that how do you confront the family? I think, you know, we would have had the same views around family and domestic violence, where it was all sort of hidden and it was domestic. Do you think we're making progress in trying to both understand the family dynamics that lead to abuse, but also being able to open up that sort of very secret and sacred space?

Bev Lange, Elder Abuse Action Australia EO

And look, I think the prevalence study that was released in 2021 gave us some insight about the types of abuse, because it was quite different. Psychological abuse was seen to be the most prevalent type. And that was different to what we'd understood the sector had said - it's financial. So, lots of things were set up, you know, legal services and mediation and such, and I think we're a long way behind in terms of psychological supports and things like how do you address coercive control, for example, or an adult child isolating their parent, maybe stealing their medication, those kinds of things. It's really hard to talk about that. It's really hard to ask a person to share their experience. And of course, when you're in, you know, you talk to the media, they only want an older person to talk about their lived experience. They don't believe that it occurs without that extra evidence. So, I think continuing to draw out conversations. We're doing a project at the moment that's recording some podcasts, all right, of people with direct lived experience or, or a person who's asked been asked to share the story on behalf of someone else. We've also got someone whose family member was involved in abusing their parents and they're telling that story from their own perspective. I think we, we need to try and draw more of those conversations out to connect to people because elder abuse is full of shame, embarrassment, people don't want to talk about it. They don't want their son or daughter charged, or grandchild charged, or intimate partner. So it's a very complex area.

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner
One of the things you've got going is , which is really your information or knowledge hub, I think you call it, which is trying to really send out the messages and educate people and communities in different ways. What do you think the biggest message from that experience has been in terms of trying to send the message through? What sort of thing do you think really works when you're trying to promote this particular issue, which is, as we said, very sensitive.

Bev Lange, Elder Abuse Action Australia EO

So, a lot of our content is necessarily difficult to consume in terms of the subject matter. So, what we've been trying to do is, is blending the light and shade. So we'll talk, we'll do an article about eating well in your 60s, 70s and 80s. So at its core, it's a preventative, albeit drawing a slightly longbow mechanism because we know being healthy, physically healthy and having good mental health is a preventative factor. We bring lots of people into Compass by publishing that kind of article. And then hopefully when they're there, they can explore other elements about better understanding the different types and looking at some resources and perhaps finding a service provider to have a conversation with. So that's our strategy at the moment, trying to get mass in and, and hopefully consume more information.

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner
I think it's true for that light and shade trying mixing the, the good and the, you know, not so good is the way that I think really does resonate with older people, and perhaps service providers and their staff as well, because they're the ones we really have to educate a lot, because they're the ones that are seeing it. 

Have you, have you thought very much about that in relation to the staff? 

We've got a new aged care system coming up. We've got aged care reforms. Ageing is being spoken about largely about a systems response, but do you think that the staff that are interfacing with older people really are starting to understand this issue and are real observers of what's happening and therefore have some obligation to respond to it?

Bev Lange, Elder Abuse Action Australia EO

Our experience so far is that the core organisations who work in the sector of elder abuse have a very good understanding, but those that sit outside that...So for example, we're doing some work with some care finders and care coordinators as a pilot and we're providing some very foundational information about elder abuse. And you know, at the moment their knowledge isn't as strong as I'd like to it to be, and I think that's generally the case across medical, clinical settings, financial institutions, lawyers. I think there's a long way to go. The work we're doing at the moment is going to help us with that.

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner

That's terrific. So World Elder Abuse Day, it happens every year. Have you got a particular message for this World Elder Abuse Day in 2025?

Bev Lange, Elder Abuse Action Australia EO

Well, we’re going to, our message is Stand up, Speak out. It's the theme of our conference next year in the Gold Coast in July 2026, and we wanted to explore what it takes to stand up and speak out. And you've very generously offered to be part of that discussion along with your predecessor, Kay Patterson and Russell Westacott, who's on the Council of Elders, and we want to understand, you know, what it takes. Because the Australian Law Reform Commission 2017 talked about it being, elder abuse was everybody's business, and everyone has to find their own way to speak about this and stand up and stop, call it out, and be active.

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner
That's terrific. Thanks, Bev.  You've certainly stood up and spoken out today. So thank you very much for that. And again, we look forward to you joining us on our next episode of Let's Talk Ageing.
And as I always say, Age Well.

Question:

How do you see yourself in older age, why is this so? �į�į 

Yumi Lee:

Prior to working for the Older Women’s Network (OWN), I never seriously considered what my 70s and 80s might look like. Ageism makes ageing seem undesirable, reinforced by the billions spent globally on anti-ageing creams! Society teaches us to resist ageing rather than embrace it. But in working with older women in OWN, I see the strength and ongoing contributions of older women. Yet, I also see the fear of homelessness— something I, too, could face. Without enough savings or superannuation, financial insecurity is real for me and others like me. Ageing is not just about wisdom and resilience; it’s about survival in a world that fails to plan for older women’s futures.

Question:

What do you see are the key challenges people face as they get older? 

Yumi Lee:

One of the greatest challenges older women face is being overlooked by policymakers, politicians, and society. Despite being the fastest-growing group at risk of homelessness, older women are rarely included in housing policies – for example, in NSW we don’t even have silver building standards! Superannuation systems fail to account for career breaks due to unpaid caregiving. Employment policies focus on younger workers. Healthcare systems overlook gendered ageing, with research and services often centred on men. Even aged care policies fail to address older women’s specific needs. Without systemic change, ageing remains a struggle in a world that refuses to plan for ageing women.

Question:

Tell us about your work and what you’ve been doing to address these challenges? 

Yumi Lee:

The Older Women’s Network (OWN) has been driving systemic change to address the urgent challenges older women face for nearly 40 years. Our Pathways to Employment program assists older women to get back to the paid workforce. The Homes for Older Women (HOW) program in the Blue Mountains links older women facing homelessness with compassionate homeowners. OWN is also working hard to end violence against older women, exposing their exclusion from domestic violence policies and advocating for stronger protections against abuse, particularly in aged care. We develop training materials to educate frontline workers on the unique forms of violence older women experience.

Question:

How can others get involved or support this work? 

Yumi Lee:

We are calling for urgent action to end the invisibility of older women in policies and programs addressing violence, housing, and poverty. Policymakers and organizations should adopt the Life Stages recommendations to drive systemic change, ensuring older women’s needs are not forgotten. This includes improving data collection and research to shape stronger, evidence-based policies. You can support OWN by donating, volunteering, or amplifying our campaigns to challenge ageism and demand justice. Breaking the cycle of neglect is our shared duty—to create a future where older women are seen, valued, empowered, and supported at every stage of life, with dignity and respect. You can learn how to get involved on our website:  

Question:

How do you see yourself in older age, why is this so? �į�į 

Br Olly:

In older age, I see myself as an important cog in the volunteer group who make wheelchairs for children in developing countries. All of us make the parts that come together to make a wheelchair. It is most rewarding to be able to do this in our retirement. My job is the volunteer factory manager, who supervises the workers so that we produce 30 wheelchairs per day. It is still very rewarding for me that I can still do this at age 84 and also, I have a very good rapport with all the volunteer workers. I think I can do this because I have a positive outlook on life. 

Question:

What do you see are the key challenges people face as they get older? 

Br Olly:

In my position as a volunteer factory manager, I see 240 people per week who are all retired and we have an average age of 76 years. There are 50 people per day who volunteer. Most have some sort of ailment – sore back, bad knee, can’t lift a moderate weight etc. Our volunteers come from all sorts of careers. However, I find a job that suits them whether it’s a sit down or stand-up job. Whatever job they do they all are comfortable in what they do and therefore happy and rewarded in that what they do helps a disabled child to have a new life by getting off the ground, having dignity as well as mobility.

Question:

Tell us about your work and what you’ve been doing to address these challenges? 

Br Olly:

I have been the volunteer factory manager for the past 27 years. In that time, I have seen so many retired people. I find that being a good listener and treating people with kindness and respect, they feel comfortable and relish the task they do. As the day passes, I always ask the volunteers how they are feeling and if they would like a change in what they are doing. They really appreciate the person in charge to be interested in what they are doing. I find a happy work force makes life much better for everyone. 

Question:

How can others get involved or support this work? 

Br Olly:

When a new volunteer starts at Wheelchairs for Kids factory, I always get them to meet others and straight away they feel they belong. It’s the feeling of belonging that brings people back and they make friends very quickly. Once they sign up and commence, I offer them a Wheelchairs for Kids shirt, and this is also a good omen as once again they are part of a team all working for the same outcome – which is making wheelchairs for disabled children. Whether a volunteer has served 20 years or a few days, everyone feels involved and appreciated. Every volunteer wears a name badge which makes meeting people very easy. You can learn how to get involved on our website:

Question:

What does getting older mean to you, and why? �į�į

Liz Neville:

As the Director of the Australian Institute of Family Studies (AIFS), I am interested in the role and contribution of older people to family life. This has always been a focus for AIFS; recently, I spoke to Don Edgar, the first AIFS Director, who is now 88 years old. Don laid the foundations for a broad and progressive conception of families, and is passionate about research into older people, including positive ageing. I look forward to continuing this important work. On a personal level, I am part of the ‘sandwich generation’ – caring for my elderly mother from a distance, while juggling the demands of work and raising teenage boys.

Question:

What do you see are the key challenges people face as they get older? 

Liz Neville:

Old age spans a wide spectrum, including young-old, middle-old and old-old. Each stage has its unique benefits and challenges. When it comes to families, there are many issues and dynamics for older people to navigate. Whether it’s  or other children in a kinship network, or supporting young adults who are  there are growing expectations on older family members. More older couples are experiencing relationship breakdown (see the ) and, later again, people may be worried about the extent of familial support when they reach the old-old stage.

Question:

Tell us about your work and what you’ve been doing to address these challenges? 

Liz Neville:

AIFS has a long track record of building the to support healthy ageing. Part of this is exploring the extent of older people’s contribution to family functioning – such as showing two in five grandparents of children under 13 provide childcare, and revealing kinship carers are likely to be older, many of them First Nations People. We also explore insidious, but surprisingly common, issues impacting older people – like our showing 1 in 6 older people living in the community experienced abuse and mistreatment. This, and our broader research on the abuse of older people in Australia, will be critical to informing the development of the government’s next .

Question:

How can others get involved or support this work? 

Liz Neville:

AIFS is currently developing a new Strategic Research Agenda, to guide our work, and position our research to better inform government policies and programs over the next 3 to 5 years. To support this process, we welcome diverse experiences and perspectives on the priority topics, critical trends and emerging issues affecting contemporary Australian families. Views about older people in Australia, and family issues across the life course, are firmly within scope – as is the interconnectedness of different generations within families. If you would like to contribute to this process and/or discuss the potential for partnership and collaboration, please visit .

Question:

What does getting older mean to you, and why? �į�į

Dr Catherine Barrett:

I believe ageing is a privilege. My 18-year-old sister died when I was 17. I was heartbroken – and left with a strong sense of my own mortality and the preciousness of life. I believe that each day is a gift. It’s not that I effortlessly celebrate life and my ageing – rather, I work hard at it. There are so many ‘anti-ageing’ messages that can derail the efforts to value our own ageing. Celebrate Ageing is not just about the work I do – it’s the life I live. So, I work at it; every single day.

Question:

What do you see are the key challenges people face as they get older? 

Dr Catherine Barrett:

I think one of the most significant challenges for older people is internalised ageism. We know this form of ageism can diminish health and wellbeing and decrease life expectancy. But ageism is so deeply entrenched in our society that many of us don’t see it in ourselves. This makes it particularly toxic. When older people protect themselves against ageism – the effects of ageism are significantly diminished. We all need to understand that ageism is not ‘other’, it’s us. All of us.  

Question:

Tell us about your work and what you’ve been doing to address these challenges? 

Dr Catherine Barrett:

The work of Celebrate Ageing Ltd is building a national network of leaders passionate about combating ageism and promoting respect for older people. We test innovations that bridge the evidence-culture gap and utilise art and narrative based approaches to engage critical mass for change. In 2023 we established a program called The Margins, to raise awareness of the relational nature of marginalisation and to ensure our work reaches all older people. We also believe in the power of older people to lead change, and we offer Fellowships to older people through our Elder Leadership Academy. 

Question:

How can others get involved or support this work? 

Dr Catherine Barrett:

Anyone who is interested in following our work can go to our website and sign up for our newsletter. Community and service leaders can check out the Facilitator’s Kits on our Education page. Anyone who is interested in supporting the work of our charity is welcome to make contact with me.

Question:

What does getting older mean to you, and why? �į�į

Ms Dorothy Hoddinott:

Getting older comes as rather a surprise: you are still yourself but without the luxury of a lifetime ahead of you, the future no longer a long-term project; there is, however, more time for yourself and developing your interests, and putting to use a lifetime’s accumulation of knowledge and experience. And there is the benefit of not having to go to work anymore. I don’t see myself radically changing my life, but I need to be realistic about its finiteness. It will come to end, I will die, I may need to be dependent on others for the last years of my life. Until then, I plan on living life to the full.

Question:

What do you see are the key challenges people face as they get older? 

Ms Dorothy Hoddinott:

Physical and possible cognitive decline aside, I think the key challenges for people as they get older include loss of agency and a sense of purpose in life. This can be particularly acute immediately post-retirement, when people may struggle with loss of self-image and authority, and how to use their time effectively. Downsizing or moving away into a new community can be difficult and problematic. Our society tends to be dismissive of older people, although most of us will get old. Poverty and homelessness, particularly for older women, who may not have adequate superannuation, are issues that need government remedy.

Question:

Tell us about your work and what you’ve been doing to address these challenges? 

Ms Dorothy Hoddinott:

Since my retirement, I have continued to work in refugee and human rights advocacy, and support for the arts. I am a pro-chancellor at the University of Sydney, which mainly involves presiding at graduation ceremonies, and am on the Council of the Sydney Symphony Orchestra. I appreciate this is not for everyone, but active involvement in the community is a good way to retain a sense of purpose and engagement in one’s life and continuing to have a voice in the wider society.

Question:

How can others get involved or support this work? 

Ms Dorothy Hoddinott:

Becoming actively involved in volunteering is not difficult. I would suggest following your interests and using the expertise and skills you have gained throughout your life: helping out at the local primary school, volunteering at a museum or a gallery, joining an organisation like the CWA or the Asylum Seeker Centre, getting involved in your local church, joining a choir or a men’s shed. There are a lot of possibilities to take you out of the house and out of yourself.

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

Hi, I'm Robert Fitzgerald. I'm the Age Discrimination Commissioner with the �����鱨վ and welcome to another episode of Let's Talk Ageing. These series are about having conversations with some of Australia's major thought leaders particularly in relation to Ageing in Australia, the issues that are important to older people and the way in which, we as a society, need to respond to those challenges and opportunities for older people to live meaningful lives. We hope that the issues that we're raising are important to you and we hope that you can work with us on trying to advance the answers to those challenging issues. 

Today we're delighted to be joined by Innes Willox, the CEO of the AI Group, one of Australia's leading industrial relations groups. 

Innes Willox AM, Ai Group CEO

Thanks so much thanks for having me.

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

The AI Group has been around a long time, does a lot of great work but you've got this notion of improving this or increasing the success of business to benefit all Australians, what do you think that means in terms of particularly older people and older workers?

Innes Willox AM, Ai Group CEO

Well Robert, the Australian Industry Group or AI Group as we know, has been around in one form or another now for just over 150 years so that's pretty old itself. We've been around and we started in Sydney with a couple of Iron Work workers and their foundries. Then it's expanded from there through the generations now to cover a whole big wide range of the economy, everything from manufacturing now through to the care sector including the age care sector, childcare, disability and everything in between, so we cover a big wide range of the economy.

Industrial relations is at our core. It’s not all that we do, but it's very much at our core so we're involved in a lot of the conversations about how the workforce is made up and how the workforce operates. What we talk about as an organisation is how we can make Australia a better place, how can Australian industry and that broad swathe of industry, make Australia more prosperous and Australians more prosperous in a sustainable way? 

You know prosperity will only come if we do drive a whole range of things including productivity and sort of really strong sustainable economic outcomes for all and, you know. So, we work across the board, we work a lot with unions, we work with government, we work with regulators to try to get the best outcome. 

We're quite moderate, well we like to think we're quite moderate, in the way we approach things but sometimes we have to be forceful to get outcomes which we think in the long run, and we always think of the long run, will make Australia a better place.

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

I want to come to some of the issues particularly around older Australians who want to enter the workforce, mature age workers, but your own reflections about yourself and ageing - how do you approach ageing for yourself?

Innes Willox AM, Ai Group CEO

I feel it every day. Well, I'm sort of now getting to an age where, as I like to say, I'm closer to the end of work than at the start, I’m way closer towards the end and so you know both within my own mind and with my wife in particular I'm having, we’re having conversations around well what does the next bit of life look like. 

But you know ageing is I think a process - the old saying if you knew now at an age you what you could if you had known that at 25 you would be a much better person and in a much better place so I think ageing necessarily gives you wisdom, gives you a whole lot of patience but most importantly it gives you perspective. 

I recently did a whole range of testing just as part of an exercise with our leadership group at the Australian Industry Group and the number one strength that I apparently have is context. I always want the context and what happens and why, and I think you as you get older that becomes more important.

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

Well talking about context, you know the demography Australia is changing. The economic need to have older workers, mature age workers, is growing, and of course older people do want to continue to work a little bit longer. But what are the sort of challenges do you think that’s posing for the Australian economy and for you know the industries that you represent?

Innes Willox AM, Ai Group CEO

So, you're going to bear with me a little bit on this this question because we talk about our current position and our future in a series of Ds, the letter D. 

So, there is Disruption - we live we live in an increasingly disrupted world.

Diversification- business is looking to diversify products and markets 

Decarbonisation - the big issue we’re trying to be a cleaner economy. 

Debt - we live in a time of debt of really strong debt.

Demography - because demography matters, it always has, and it always will. There have been books written, many books written about demography, but the fact is that we are both ageing and shifting - how we live and where we live. We're living longer. You know we have recently seen the retirement age start to inch up and we have to do two things - we have to take account as a workforce, that a national workforce I mean, that we that we are getting older; and we have to provision for that older cohort of the population which is growing.

So it is shifting how we how we work, in terms of trying to keep people in the workplace for longer. Which to be quite blunt Robert, business overall, sweeping generality, hasn’t been great at in the past. There has been this notion of if you reach 50 (years), perhaps that's it, you know, if your job goes you know you're made redundant, your place of work shuts down. Getting another job has been incredibly difficult. So, we're in the middle, I think, of a of a major national mindset shift here, which is driven by necessity as well as by commonsense. We have to find ways to keep, I don't like to say older, I like to say more mature workers in the workplace.

Now there's a couple of ways that some of the trends are really helping with this: work from home or the notion of hybrid work or blended work is really helpful, and the fact that we have now that greater connectivity. 

So, part of the challenge we have is that as we're getting older the other D that I didn't mention I wanted to link them in together, Demography and Digitalisation, is that we have to retrain reskill and get the older workforce in a better position to participate.

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

Do you think your employer groups the groups that you represent have come to the realization that they need to be employing older workers into the future, has that sort of dawned on them?

Innes Willox AM, Ai Group CEO

It's sinking in, it's sinking in. The realisation is there. It's now how do we do it, and that's where the digitalisation is important. 

So, work from home you could say is part of digitalisation, but 80% of the jobs, now and in the future, have a digital component. That doesn't mean we all have to become computer coders and IT sort of Geeks or experts, but there has to be some digital awareness and so we have to go through a process of assisting people to retrain. That’s where either in work learning, work-integrated learning as it’s known, or external services providers are going to be so important to helping people to reskill and that’s where the big challenge lies. 

So yes, business is adapting to the idea that we have to do this now and how best to we equip people to participate in this.

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

Okay thanks very much Innes, that’s terrific. 

Looking forward to seeing you on further episodes of Let's Talk Ageing, and as I always say may you age well.

Question:

Who is an older or younger person who has had an impact on your life and how? �į

Professor Marian Baird:

One older person who has truly inspired me is women’s social policy advocate Marie Coleman AO PSM. I first met Marie over 25 years ago when I was researching women’s access to paid parental leave in Australia. Marie, now aged 92, is a clear-minded person with years of experience in developing and evaluating public policy. She is a strong feminist and was very influential in the debates leading up to the introduction of Australia’s paid parental leave scheme. We worked together on a number of projects. I have always found Marie’s zest for life and activism inspiring, plus she has a great sense of humour and compassion. 

Question:

What do you see are the key challenges people face as they get older? 

Professor Marian Baird:

I see challenges and also opportunities for people as they age. Managing health, work and caring can be challenging. I see these issues coming into my research and into my personal experiences, and understand more and more the concerns about health and wellbeing people have for themselves and for the ones for whom they care. Caring and working are intertwined for many older women today and they intensify as we age. Coupled with this are the financial costs of living longer, such as medical and housing costs, which can be very worrying. Reflecting on one’s own life also becomes more pronounced, as does the desire to contribute more to family and friends.

Question:

Tell us about the research you’ve been doing to address these challenges?  

Professor Marian Baird:

As the population ages so too does the workforce and we have been researching how older workers navigate their careers, and how organisations accommodate (or not) the older worker. Our focus has been on older women as they constitute the largest growth in Australia’s workforce over the past two decades and they contribute enormously to Australia’s economy. They also provide the majority of care to older relatives and to grandchildren. Our research highlights the areas organisations can focus on for older workers, which include working time flexibility, career opportunities and improved knowledge exchange.  

Question:

How can others get involved or support this work? 

Professor Marian Baird:

The first way is to read our new book! It is called . In it we provide many examples of how managers and workers can improve our workplaces for the benefit of older and younger workers, and for the organisation as a whole. 

The second way is to be aware of the challenges of ageing and contribute to public debates and enquiries. The third way is to support all those people who help and support our most frail and aged members of the community. 

We have to recognise that we are living in what I am calling ‘the age of ageing’ and that the way we work, and care need to adapt.  

Question:

Who is an older or younger person who has had an impact on your life and how? �į

Mr Craig Gear:

Like many, but not all, I have had the privilege of having both my grandmothers in my early life - that gave me insights, love, care and fierce guidance. They taught me respect, living your values and how to laugh. Their encouragement led me to nursing and citizen advocacy.

The person who now carries on their legacy is Val Fell – my friend and mentor (and whom I call ‘the boss’). 95 years of wisdom in 5 feet of height. Val pushes me to see the change you can make when you bring lived experience voices to the table.

Question:

What do you see are the key challenges people face as they get older? 

Mr Craig Gear:

The main issues for older people are being dismissed, ignored and having their agency removed. 

Older people have made their own decisions all their life and suddenly as they age, there is a stripping of human rights and assumption of legal capacity.

It’s deeply rooted in the pernicious effects of ageism. It’s wrong and treats older people as ‘the other’ and a burden. It leads to less services for older people - services which should be based on their wishes, preferences and needs. 

It risks, and results in abuse of older people and is a scourge on Australian society. 

The solution – older people recognising and exercising their human rights - forcefully and unapologetically. That’s the way we eliminate ageism.

Question:

Tell us about OPAN and what it is doing to address these challenges?

Mr Craig Gear:

OPAN is a national network of advocacy organisations dedicated to improving people’s access to safe, high-quality aged care. 

Our nine state and territory member organisations delivered more than 44,000 cases of information and advocacy support to older people and their families in the last financial year. 

At a systemic level, we raise the voices of older people with government, aged care providers and sector stakeholders - challenging ageist stereotypes to advance reform. 

The qualitative and quantitative data we gather through our individual advocacy work enables us to identify emerging trends and barriers for people who are seeking or receiving government-funded aged care.

Question:

How can others get involved or support this work? 

Mr Craig Gear:

OPAN established the National Older Persons Reference group in 2020 to hear from, and engage with, a diverse range of older people across Australia.

This includes people living with dementia, people living with disability, people living with mental illness, LGBQTI+ people, people living in rural and remote Australia, people living in residential care, people living with rare and/or chronic disease, Forgotten Australians, Aboriginal people, and people from culturally, ethnically, and linguistically diverse backgrounds. 

To broaden the input of people from minority, isolated or diverse groups, OPAN has also established a Community Voices Register of people with expertise in specific areas of ageing. 

If you want to be a citizen advocate for the human rights of older people join our community voices by emailing policy@opan.org.au or call 0480 683 974.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

Hi, I'm Robert Fitzgerald. I'm the Age Discrimination Commissioner with the �����鱨վ.

And today I'm pleased you're able to join us on this next episode of our series, Let's Talk Ageing.

These are a series of conversations with Australia's thought leaders in relation to older people and the ageing of Australia and raising many issues, challenges, and also celebrating the work that we're doing in Australia for older people.

Today, I'm especially pleased to be able to welcome Pat Sparrow, who's the CEO of COTA Australia. That's Council of the Ageing.

So welcome, Pat.

Pat Sparrow – COTA Australia CEO

Thank you for having me on the series.

I think it's a really important series and particularly on International Day of Older Persons.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

So let's start with that, Pat.

The International Day of Older Persons is a day in which we celebrate older people right throughout the world.

But from your work in COTA, and your work generally, why do we value older people and why is this day such an important day?

Pat Sparrow – COTA Australia CEO

I think it's an important day because we need to make sure that we do value older people, and I think we don't think about it very consciously sometimes.

And I think days like an Older Person's Day actually bring it to the fore for the community, for all of us who are working to make sure that we are thinking about older people.

I think we do have issues in the country where we don't always think about older people, and that's what we need to really try and start to address.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

And do you think Australia actually values older people?

Pat Sparrow – COTA Australia CEO

Not as much as I think we should. I think, like most countries, we don't think about it.

We don't think about ageism and we see older people in a particular way.

And I think we need to shift that.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

So, before we look at some of the challenges, how do you sort of personally approach ageing for yourself and for your family members?

Pat Sparrow – COTA Australia CEO

Yeah, well, I mean, and that's a thing. We are all ageing. And I guess I'm approaching it the best way I know how.

But I'm conscious that some of the things that I do actually indicate the internalised ageism that people have. So, I still dye my hair, for example, because I've been told sometime in my youth that people won't listen to a grey-haired old lady.

So, you know, I think there are those things, but I'm trying to tackle it with grace and with style, which is what I'd like to do. And I think I saw my mother do that, my older sisters doing that. And actually being who they are.

And I do feel as I've got older that I'm more me than I've ever been at any time in my life. And I think it's important that we do that and we embrace it and that we are looking at the opportunities, the things that I still want to be able to do, as well as some of the challenges we have facing.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

What are some of the key challenges for older people that COTA is currently working on?

Pat Sparrow – COTA Australia CEO

Well, look, we're working across, we work for anyone over the age of 50, across all of the various things that might impact on a person's life.

So we're active in the health space and the employment space, in aged care, in retirement incomes, and there's a lot of things happening in all of those areas. But one of the things that I've really kind of come to understand in my role is that ageism is actually at the core, core of many of the challenges that we're addressing across them.

And so COTA has started to be much more active in talking about ageism, calling ageism out, whether it's that internalised ageism, but also what we see a lot in the work we do is benevolent ageism. In care settings, the way health and aged care interacts and treats older people through to discrimination, that is, more in employment, where we see recruiters not wanting to apply or employ someone over the age of 50.

So we are trying to raise those issues and to look at what are the structural, legislative, regulatory changes that are needed. So we want to do the awareness raising, but what are the things that we can then do structurally to make sure that ageism can be managed.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

So in your discussions with the government at the moment, what would be the two or three key issues amongst all of those that stand out for you?

Pat Sparrow – COTA Australia CEO

The two things that are really, obvious at the moment that are really ongoing, things like aged care reform. And the thing that we're really pushing is that we get a new act that's based, a rights-based act, because it's shocking to think that older people don't have rights in aged care.

So we want to make sure that that happens and that we get that right and that people are respected and valued and supported to make their own decisions, rather than having people make decisions for them.

The other one is in retirement incomes. Government's doing quite a lot of reform around retirement incomes. And again, we're looking at how do we make sure, in the way that those reforms roll out, that older people can have a good retirement, do the things that they want to do in retirement and continue to be financially sort of able to live the life they want to live. And that's, you know, that's difficult.

We know the cost of living is affecting many people, but those are the two that are really hot at the moment.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

And do you feel you're getting good hearing in the political landscape?

Pat Sparrow – COTA Australia CEO

Yes, I think we are. One of the things that we would advocate for, though, across all of the things that we're doing is that we think there needs to be a strategy for an ageing Australia. We think that what happens at the moment, there's some good things that happen, some not-so good things happen, but happens in silos in particular, in particular portfolios or particular areas.

What we'd like to see government do is take a much more overarching look because the demographics tell us we're going to have many more older people.

So we'd like to see a much broader look across. What does government need to do to make sure that we can have an ageing Australia and people can contribute to that society.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

And if people want to get engaged in these conversations, these issues and the work of COTA, how could they best do that?

Pat Sparrow – COTA Australia CEO

Look, you can be a supporter for COTA. You can come to our website, COTA.org.au

and sign up to be a supporter. And we do with everything that we do, we try and make sure that we're raising the voice of older people directly.

So we do a lot of engagement, a lot of work. We recently submitted to the menopause inquiry, for example. We held focus groups with older women about their experiences.

We'll do surveys on particular topics. So it is an opportunity for you to inform our advocacy and to have your voice heard with Government.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

That's a great way to finish.

Thanks very much, Pat, and thank you for being part of the Let's Talk Ageing series.

And for everyone out there, may you age well.

Question: 

Who is an older or younger person who has had an impact on your life and how? �į 

Dr John Chesterman: 

I had childhood asthma when I was young. I recall, at about the age of 6, spending time with an older family friend, a man named Roy. He also had breathing difficulties. I recall walking on the beach with him as he told me about his coping mechanisms, which included remaining calm, not panicking, and trying not to think too much about breathing. I also recall his sense of humour, which was a good way of diverting my attention away from breathing. Those interactions with Roy have stayed with me for decades, and were a part of shaping who I am.  

Question: 

What do you see are the key challenges people face as they get older?  

Dr John Chesterman: 

There are some general challenges facing people as they age, which include the limiting stereotypes about ageing and the risk generally of being ‘unseen’ in the community. I recall the story of an older woman who took to waving a fifty dollar note in a store in the hope that someone would see that she was waiting to be served. There are also specific and well-documented risks associated with ageing, such as social isolation and loneliness, and of course the risk of elder abuse.   

Question: 

Tell us about the work you’ve been doing as Public Advocate in Queensland (and prior) to address these challenges?  

Dr John Chesterman: 

I have long sought to address the ‘safeguarding gap’ that occurs when adults are at risk in the general community. I completed a Churchill Fellowship report on this topic in 2013. One of the reports that I have released in my time as Queensland Public Advocate is a two-volume report on Adult Safeguarding in Queensland. Among other things, this report calls for the creation of an Adult Safeguarding Commissioner in Queensland, and echoes some of the key adult safeguarding reforms called for by the Australian Law Reform Commission in its 2017 report Elder Abuse – A National Legal Response. I am also a strong advocate for harmonised state and territory financial enduring powers of attorney laws and have released a ‘model law’ in the hope of prompting reform on this topic. 

Question: 

How can others get involved or support this work?  

Dr John Chesterman: 

I encourage people to read my report and the ALRC report, and to ask what their jurisdiction can do to improve the way that it works to prevent and respond to elder abuse. I also encourage people more generally to reach out to people who are isolated, and to devise ways of providing opportunities for marginalised people to stay connected with others. One reform idea that I included in my safeguarding report concerned the proposed creation of Adult Safeguarding Networks throughout Queensland. The idea there is that these networks, among other things, would facilitate greater local awareness of, and outreach potential to, adults who are at risk of harms such as elder abuse. �į  

Question

What does getting older mean to you, and why?

Mrs Val Fell

Getting older means that time to advocate for improvements in the aged care system is getting shorter. Now is the time to pass into legislation an Australian Human Rights Act to establish the foundation of an Aged Care Act, based on the needs of people in the system. The former will make the rules and regulations of the latter enforceable. 

Currently for me, getting older means joining the queues; for an assessment, list of services available, or names of providers and funds. 

At 95 years of age time is running out for me to advocate for the system to be fit for purpose and to obtain appropriate services for myself. 

Question

What do you see are the key challenges people face as they get older? 

Mrs Val Fell

Social isolation, lack of employment opportunities, income restrictions, homelessness and the stigma of ageing.

Question

Tell us about your work with the Council of Elders and what you have been doing to address these challenges? 

Mrs Val Fell

As a member of the Council of Elders I discuss people's needs, preferences and goals in the community on a face-to-face basis, in focus groups and in public consults to present these to the government.

Question

How can others get involved or support this work? 

Mrs Val Fell

Join the on the Department of Health and Aged Care's website.

Keep up to date by taking part in surveys and listening to webinars on all aspects of aged care such as: food and nutrition, meaningful activities, clinical care, allied health, support at home, residential care and star ratings. 

Council of Elders members advise the Minister for Aged Care on the results of these discussions - add your voice!

Question

How do you see yourself in older age, why is this so?

Mr Murray Coates

I see myself travelling with friends and learning about diverse and interesting cultures. I always found travel an important way to learn new perspectives outside of my own. I hope ageing will still allow me to have this experience, whether it’s overseas or in Australia.

An important aspect of this is the sharing of experiences with friends. Being able to laugh, cry, and enjoy time with important people in my life will be crucial.

Question

What do you see are the key challenges people face as they get older?

Mr Murray Coates

Many people that are ageing who live in our community still have so much to contribute, but there are societal barriers that slow them down or stop them from contributing to their full extent. 

For example, a lack of accessible transport can result in people who are isolated and stuck in their home. Many older Australians are socially isolated, which in turn results in a lack of autonomy and independence. We know this can lead to additional physical and mental health issues, and premature aged care placement.

We need to empower older Australians and give them as much control over their life as they want.

Question

Tell us about the importance of community transport for older people and how the ACTA National Conference seeks to support this?

Mr Murray Coates

Community transport ultimately returns a sense of control over one's life and circumstances and provides significant physical and mental health benefits.

Many people have so much they want to do and contribute but their sole barrier is access to transport.

Community Transport gives them access to the wider world, and fulfillment in their life, allowing them to carry out daily tasks, get to medical appointments, run errands and socialise with friends. Even the trip itself offers social engagement with the driver or fellow passengers.

ACTA’s 2024 National Conference in August aims to bring together transport providers and senior government staff, to learn from each other, discuss new concepts and the future of the sector, including our CHSP Community Transport Pricing Pilot run in conjunction with the Department of Health and Aged Care.

The pilot is our main project which seeks to improve the sustainability of the sector and, in turn, the quality of service provided to older Australians. 

Question

How can others get involved or support this work?

Mr Murray Coates

You can support community transport organisations by becoming a volunteer driver which is an incredibly fulfilling role.

If you are part of the community transport sector, ACTA, as the national peak body, offers membership to organisations, providing a range of benefits to help navigate and improve service delivery and advocacy. For more information visit our website .

ACTA operates at both State and Commonwealth levels. As an example, members participate in state-based advisory groups for the sector, such as the Victorian special interest group.  

Question 

Who is an older or younger person who inspires you and why? 

Dr Marlene Krasovitsky 

My sons.

I always learn new things and get different perspectives from them. Watching them navigate through life, making conscious choices about what is important to them and then acting on those values inspires me. 

I hear about their challenges – some of which I have also faced, many I have not. Sometimes my experience and ideas help, sometimes not. 

But we can always share, and I can always listen. They are supportive of me and what I do. They challenge me and it makes me think hard. They strengthen what I know - that building understanding and connection across generations helps challenge ageism.

Question

What do you see are the key challenges people face as they get older? 

Dr Marlene Krasovitsky 

Ageism is a real barrier to ageing well. 

Ageism stems from deeply held, often unquestioned negative beliefs about what it means to get older and about older people.

Ageism is pervasive and highly tolerated. Ageism is in ourselves - what we tell ourselves and how we feel about getting older. Ageism is in our relationships and in our institutions.

Ageism has devastating impacts on our health, our financial security, our sense of relevance and participation, and our control over life decisions. Ageism leads to exclusion, discrimination, mistreatment and inequity, and diminishes our rights and autonomy.  

Ageism can make us, and our concerns, invisible.

Question

Tell us about EveryAge Counts and what it is doing to address these challenges. 

Dr Marlene Krasovitsky 

EveryAGE Counts is Australia’s national coalition-led, grassroots movement of individuals and organisations dedicated to highlighting the social, economic and civic impacts of ageism experienced by older people, and building an Australia that no longer tolerates it.

EveryAGE Counts builds public awareness to challenge these harmful attitudes, stereotypes, assumptions and discrimination. Our vision is “a society where every person is valued, connected and respected regardless of age”.  

We work together to positively change the way we think act and feel about ageing and older people, and to set the foundations for current and future generations to age well. 

Question

How can others get involved or support this work? 

Dr Marlene Krasovitsky 

Visit our website and take the pledge to stand for a world without ageism. 

Join with the many individuals, organisations, Local Councils, think tanks, peak groups and service providers to build an Australia without ageism and stay connected with our growing movement. 

Take the ‘Am I ageist?’ quiz, share our resources and start a discussion - with your family, in your community or workplace. Join us on Ageism Awareness Day on 9 October. 

The more we name ageism and call it out the better chance we have of drawing these negative attitudes, assumptions and behaviours out of the shadows, and creating a world where we can age well. 

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

Welcome. I'm Robert Fitzgerald. I'm the newly minted Age Discrimination Commissioner taking over from the great work done by Kay Patterson. 

And today it's a great pleasure to launch a new series of interviews with prominent Australians, thought leaders of our nation, in relation to ageing. And the series is called 'Let's Talk Ageing'. 

We hope that by having these discussions with prominent individuals, sharing ideas and thoughts we might be able to create a better environment for those of us that are ageing, a positive environment, and also to deal with some of the big issues confronting older Australians. 

Today, it's a great joy to be able to interview, as our very first interview, Emeritus Professor Rosalind Croucher - the current President of the �����鱨վ. 

Almost about to finish her term, and Rosalind was also Acting Age Discrimination Commissioner shortly before my appointment. 

So welcome, Ros. Ros, it's really wonderful to have you as our first interviewee. You've just recently come back from the United Nations in Geneva. I was just wondering what sort of reflections you've had on that visit, given it's your last as President of the �����鱨վ. 

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing �����鱨վ President 

Thank you, Robert. 

The visit was in the context of the annual meeting of the Global Alliance of National Human Rights institutions. There are 120 worldwide, and it's a very big group. 

We have business that we have to get through, but we also have an opportunity to focus on key thematic issues that concern us regionally and internationally. 

And one of those that came from our own region was the importance of a Convention recognising specifically the position of older people. So that was one of the themes.  

And to see it have prominence in that context indicates that it really is one of the issues of the moment. 

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

And as you and I are both at that age where we get to be called seniors. And for some of us we're going to become grumpy old men and women in our old age. 

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing �����鱨վ President 

Speak for yourself!  

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

With your extraordinary background.  

But, how do you see yourself approaching old age or ageing?  

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing �����鱨վ President 

We age from the day we're born. 

So ageing is not confined to a certain numerical age, although certain physical issues are associated with a numerical age. I see that with each year you get wiser, and I appreciate the physical things that happen as one gets older. 

But, age and maturity give you an enormous amount of wisdom. And I think one of the challenges is getting that alignment of what people see from the outside, to see the wisdom and not see, or not be distracted by physical ageing, but rather see the strength of years accumulated as wisdom accumulated.  

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

So, what do you think are some of the great challenges for older Australians? 

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing �����鱨վ President 

Hanging on to their autonomy and agency. And one of the difficulties happens with what people see from the outside, and the assumptions that are made, and this sense of sometimes coming from a space of benevolence, wanting to help. 

But the wanting to help can also be a denial of, 'what do you want?' 'Can I help you?' 

Rather than framing it as 'what I can do for you because you need help?'  

Framing it rather as 'you are so wise, can I help you in any way?' Or, 'what do you want?'  

So, it's that sense of agency and autonomy as you age that can easily slide into this benevolence that can overtake and deny you agency and autonomy. I think that's the thing that I saw the most. 

And for the most part, it wasn't evil. But that excessive, paternalistic or benevolent approach can actually deny you the space for decision making, good and bad.  

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

Yeah. One of the things that I've often said is that as we age, we become invisible, or less visible, and worse, voiceless. 

And in many senses, the thing that underpins both elder abuse and the abuse by others in our community is, of course, that loss of agency, as you said, that voice not being heard. 

But do you think there are some practical measures Australia needs to do at a policy level and at a practice level, to sort of moderate the risks that we see in elder abuse and in fact, that diminishment of agencies we've been talking about?   

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing �����鱨վ President 

There are so many things. 

I could see the lists going through my mind as you asked the question. I think that the starting point is always to assume agency and not to start from an assumption of, 'well, we need to make sure someone is there to be your backstop or whatever'. 

So in the aged care context, for example, if people are going into the appointment of an attorney 

under a power of attorney document, and then assumptions that went with that, that they were the decision makers, not that they were your default in the event that you needed that support, but rather they became the decision maker, which immediately assumes that lack of agency on autonomy. 

So, it was a flashpoint for those kinds of things. So, all kinds of decision making, whether it's decisions about care, whether it's decisions about food, where you live, what you want to do, that you retain the primary agency in any policy or practise or process that detracts from that fundamental proposition 

needs to be looked at closely. 

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

You've got a conference coming up for Free + Equal, or pushing the particular agenda. 

Some people would say, you know, Australian older people have it pretty good. Now we know some don't, but the big question is, why do rights actually matter? And I suppose underpinning the work of the Commission and the push towards a United Nations Convention on the Rights of Older People 

what is it that you think is missing in our current system that would be rectified or strengthened by having a stronger rights-based framework?  

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing �����鱨վ President 

A stronger rights framework, and particularly anchored in domestic legislation that aligns more directly with the promises our governments make to the world by signing up to international treaties. 

That stronger anchoring in law would provide what I see as a much higher responsibility in making decisions and designing policy, but also in accountability, so that decision makers can be held to account. There are remedial pathways that potentially actually lead to a remedy and not just some piece of paper that doesn't go anywhere. But that responsibility and accountability would be anchored properly in laws of our own. And for older people, one of the problems is the invisibility. 

And while one can assume, well, the position of older people in rights terms is no different from any other rights context. 

The problem with that is that there is that danger of invisibility and disappearance unless the position of an older person is recognised in the way that we recognise people with disability, the issues in relation to race, gender. 

If age is not singled out for its own particular recognition, there is the danger of invisibility of a cohort, an increasing cohort with increasing vulnerabilities that go with the physical consequences of ageing, sadly, that the dangers of invisibility can be compounded by an assumption that we don't need specific protection for older people. 

So, over the last couple of decades, as there's been work done on that potential for a Convention, many governments, including the Australian governments, have either sat on the fence or have been completely indifferent to it.  

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

Why do you think that's been the case, not only for Australia, but generally? 

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing �����鱨վ President 

I think the answer is found in the very broad commitments that are already contained in the range of international conventions, certainly that Australia has signed and ratified seven, in fact. 

And the commitments in those general Conventions apply to older people as well. 

So people might argue, and argue well, the coverage in rights protections at the level of international treaties is very wide. 

But the problem, as we've been discussing, is the danger of disappearance. 

The danger of invisibility in the context of a population, where we are an ageing population, and that's not going to get less, it's going to get more. 

And with that, if we assume that all's well and dandy because of the coverage of others there is the problem of lack of visibility of the specific rights issues that apply to older people. 

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

So, if people want to become involved in this issue or become more knowledgeable about the issues that you've been raising, Ros, what do you think they should do or what's available for them? 

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing �����鱨վ President 

Well, the Human Rights Commission itself is a wonderful resource of material through submissions that we make on a whole range of issues, the various inquiry reports and so on. 

In relation to rights at the moment, and the tipping point that we have in terms of embracing a revitalised human rights framework in Australia, which is the central point of our Free + Equal report  

and inquiry advocacy, is to see the work that we're doing, read the material we produced, join us at the conference, the Free + Equal conference in the first week of June which will be fantastic and really get interested and engaged in what these issues mean for you. 

Because everyone is ageing. It is not something that is out there in the future, a long way away. Ageing starts from the day we are born. We have people in our lives that are wonderful older people. You will be that person sooner than you realise.  

So, these are issues that are relevant and important to you, now and in the future, and for our country to make it a much stronger place of rights protection for older people. But all our people. 

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

That's terrific. A terrific way to end.  

And hopefully you and I, and everyone else can enter ageing in a positive way and our experience be as positive as possible. 

So, thank you very much.  

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing �����鱨վ President 

Thank you, Robert. 

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

These series of talks and interviews will come out on a regular basis by the Commission and we're very hopeful that you can engage in this process as well.  

If you'd like to find out more about this particular 'Let's Talk Ageing' series, or any of the work of the Human Rights Commission, or especially the Age Discrimination Commissioner, just go to our website and hopefully we can join you in the future. 

Take care.